overview

here is an overview of the conversation on the thread (i'm Ri_Ri)

from other thread----

basic204 Wrote:

I was up last night thinking and it hit me what is the truth of reality do any of the people I see and talk to really exist how do I know that I did not just put this world to gether with my mind and all of this is not real how do I know when I close doors their is nothing on the other said till I open it. Philosophical views of reality Philosophy addresses two different aspects of the topic of reality: the nature of reality itself, and the relationship between the mind (as well as language and culture) and reality. On the one hand, ontology is the study of being, and the central topic of the field is couched, variously, in terms of being, existence, "what is", and reality. The task in ontology is to describe the most general categories of reality and how they are interrelated. If — what is rarely done — a philosopher wanted to proffer a positive definition of the concept "reality", it would be done under this heading. As explained above, some philosophers draw a distinction between reality and existence. In fact, many analytic philosophers today tend to avoid the term "real" and "reality" in discussing ontological issues. But for those who would treat "is real" the same way they treat "exists", one of the leading questions of analytic philosophy has been whether existence (or reality) is a property of objects. It has been widely held by analytic philosophers that it is not a property at all, though this view has lost some ground in recent decades. On the other hand, particularly in discussions of objectivity that have feet in both metaphysics and epistemology, philosophical discussions of "reality" often concern the ways in which reality is, or is not, in some way dependent upon (or, to use fashionable jargon, "constructed" out of) mental and cultural factors such as perceptions, beliefs, and other mental states, as well as cultural artifacts, such as religions and political movements, on up to the vague notion of a common cultural world view or Weltanschauung. The view that there is a reality independent of any beliefs, perceptions, etc., is called realism. More specifically, philosophers are given to speaking about "realism about" this and that, such as realism about universals or realism about the external world. Generally, where one can identify any class of object the existence or essential characteristics of which is said to depend on perceptions, beliefs, language, or any other human artifact, one can speak of "realism about" that object. One can also speak of anti-realism about the same objects. Anti-realism is the latest in a long series of terms for views opposed to realism. Perhaps the first was idealism, so called because reality was said to be in the mind, or a product of our ideas. Berkeleyan idealism is the view, propounded by the Irish empiricist George Berkeley, that the objects of perception are actually ideas in the mind. On this view, one might be tempted to say that reality is a "mental construct"; this is not quite accurate, however, since on Berkeley's view perceptual ideas are created and coordinated by God. By the 20th century, views similar to Berkeley's were called phenomenalism. Phenomenalism differs from Berkeleyan idealism primarily in that Berkeley believed that minds, or souls, are not merely ideas nor made up of ideas, whereas varieties of phenomenalism, such as that advocated by Russell, tended to go farther to say that the mind itself is merely a collection of perceptions, memories, etc., and that there is no mind or soul over and above such mental events. Finally, anti-realism became a fashionable term for any view which held that the existence of some object depends upon the mind or cultural artifacts. The view that the so-called external world is really merely a social, or cultural, artifact, called social constructionism, is one variety of anti-realism. Cultural relativism is the view that social issues such as morality are not absolute, but at least partially cultural artifact. A Correspondence theory of knowledge about what exists involves the accurate correspondence of true statements and images with the reality that the statements or images are attempting to represent. For example, the scientific method can verify that a statement is true based on the observable evidence that a thing exists. Many humans can point to the Rocky Mountains and say that this mountain range exists, and continues to exist even if no one is observing it or making statements about it. However, there is nothing that we can observe and name, and then say that it will exist forever. Eternal beings, if they exist, would need some other method to describe them other than the scientific one.

basic204 Wrote:

MacabrexTeaparty Wrote: [size=11] Reality is what we preserve it to be, Its all Quantum Physics. In my Opinion, which is most probably wrong, I think that Reality is what we can see, what we can prove. Something is not real unless we can see it. How do people know that something is really there when they are look looking at it? Some Scientists did a test to find out whither Light travels in beams or particles. They found that when you looked at the Light, it travelled in complete beams, but when not being looked at, it travels in particles. Although I am sure this test was proven, I myself do not completely believe its integrity, Who knows. So this means that when you close a door their is nothing on the other side when you can not see some one they do not exist

MacabrexTeaparty Wrote:

[align=center]If you had not seen what was on the other side of the door before closing it. Have you ever heard the story of Schrödinger's Cat? Schrödinger's cat is a seemingly paradoxical thought experiment devised by Erwin Schrödinger that attempts to illustrate the incompleteness of an early interpretation of quantum mechanics when going from subatomic to macroscopic systems. The experiment proposes: A cat is placed in a sealed box. Attached to the box is an apparatus containing a radioactive atomic nucleus and a canister of poison gas. This apparatus is separated from the cat in such a way that the cat can in no way interfere with it. The experiment is set up so that there is exactly a 50% chance of the nucleus decaying in one hour. If the nucleus decays, it will emit a particle that triggers the apparatus, which opens the canister and kills the cat. If the nucleus does not decay, then the cat remains alive. According to quantum mechanics, the unobserved nucleus is described as a superposition (meaning it exists partly as each simultaneously) of "decayed nucleus" and "undecayed nucleus". However, when the box is opened the experimenter sees only a "decayed nucleus/dead cat" or an "undecayed nucleus/living cat." Before the sealed box is opened, It is only what your mind preseves that makes it reality. Whether or not the Cat is alive or Dead.[/align]

basic204 Wrote:

Moonlite Symphony Wrote: Reality is in perception of experience. That's it. We can perceive anything to be real if we choose to. But technically speaking every time we see somethign it's the first time, as a memory is entirely within our minds. Technically speaking there is no concrete proof that anything is totaly real, except to be able to experience it. So I simply say reality is perception So if we do not know about it does not exist

Ri_Ri Wrote:

warning: the below is from a philisophical point of view onlynothing to do with religon. some of it maybe, i'm not sure of what i wrote. when my brain starts going fastly it's hard to remember thought. reality is what you make of it. it's in perpsective and thought. physical sciences and other forms of physics are a way humans observe the world. but what if our views of everything are wrong? why are very few creature like humans able to see the visible spectrum? why can some insects see ultra violet light? reality is a personal view on everything that we as humans take to be as true. or is reality a system caused by the natural pattern in everything? is it the thing that holds the fabric of the universe together, that time is a constant series of moments and history the rate at which event occur along with time ad how the histories of culture overlaping one another in a neverending spiral of learning thought and the given truths of life of what we are meant to beleive. for religous people reading this the human perception of the world is the way God made us to see the world and how God wants us to beleive these things. one another pace, reality is a personal thing do not underestimate the power of beleif and do not underestimate how your thoughts and voice can influence others, as it is in the nature of human race to accept the world which we are presented. (the last part was from a discusion we had in our signet class.) the part about underestimating was mine though. thought isn't a part of existance but it is like genetics that it is passed down within a society. any new thought was rather from new experiences, new exposure to something, or a mutation from regular thought. mutations in thoughts are like genes, in that some are negative and otheres postive ( invetive genius vs. crazt person). of course the normal perception of positive and negative is thought passed down withing a society and within a human with the brains thoughts and feelinging and nerv impulses giving either pain or pleasure. reality though it cannot be explained, it's not to say it can't exsist, it does, but it's something different for every person. there are as many realities as there are thinking minds. language limits us so we cannot completley explain all of everything, but it's the only way humans can communicate, by some language, without being too vague. reality is everything and everything is reality. the author Madeleine L'Engle said very well in one of her books "what is real?". this truly explains that the word reality is very vague and is used very loosely. we ourselves as people do not completely understand everything, and reality is one of the things that have been disputed among humans. what many don't get is because there are as many realities as people, there will always be disagreements between people as to what reality is and because people think differntly, there will always be misunderstandings and that people will always be wondering what is reality, why am i here, and am i real? these are questions so many face. other questions, like what's the point? is reality real? this is a diemma if you make it one. there are some things one must accept and others one must ponder, but everything is pondered, and the real question is, if we aren't real, why are we arguing about reality? what is the point? but we are real, aren't we? what is the difference between the imagination of a five year old and the story of a sciene fiction novel, the science fiction novel is based on fact? but isn't the child's imagination? the child has to know something to imagine something, as a science fiction author. the answer to all questions is another 5 questions to replace it. life? life and death are like freezing and melting. to be real is to be at all. but to be nothing is impossible because even the vaccume of space is filled with something, space. erality is an individual thing. a concept one can only find for oneself. even if one questions the very exsistance of that self, it's from person to person. thinking for oneself is a proof that you exsist, or is it? existance though is a part of reality, but just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. but if we don't know something, do we have a right to have judgment on it? reality, the basis is backed by a universe. maybe more than one. if we only know of the laws of physics in this dimension, and not others, how are we to ever find out if reality is what it is. then there is the point that many people make " reality is what we are able to observe with the 5 senses". oh yeah? then why do so many people beleive that love is real? what is love? is it an imagination of the mind caused by the human need for interaction and communication and the human compulsion to feel emotion or is it a part of the universe? a part of reality? here is an excerpt from my blog sir0001.blogspot.com concerning this, as this is just so much fun to discuss. SiR Wrote: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 BEHOLD! You have reached the boundary of reality, my mind. let go of your sanity before reading. then it will make sense. you have to get rid of your opinion and think with a clean slate to understand my thoughts. today in signet we watched a movie called "the truman show". it was a good movie. after we watched the movie wehad to answer some questions. i chose to answer the 2 questions of what is my perspective of reality and whether something can be real and made up. the answer i had was kinda combined. what i said was reality is different for everyone. there are as many worlds as there are people. i.e; schitzofranic person wpuld see reality as the images he sees. reality is to a person as artwork is to an artist. and to answer the other question, yes, something can be made up and real. because all reality is is a state of mind . this mind is shaped by us and stuff. one example. two people can be twins, grow up together , in the same environment, but one person may see life as a joy, a wonder, and a series of challenges while the other might see life as a cage, a predictable system, a prisonment of some sort, and a planned machine. these are two diiferent realities of two different people. this is the reason so many people aren't understood, because everyone lives in the world that they beievle is real. and the prosses of thinking is different. you may call me insane, but please also acknowlegde that even if you don't agree with my thoughts, i am, a thinker in that. i have a mind. and i use it. yes, the deep side. the side of me i usually don't let people see(you lucky duck, you got a glimpse) because it is my weak side, the side of me that is most vulnerable to attack, the side that if people saw they'd be to freaked out to talk to me. because it is my reality, my understanding of the world is so different... tho i bet a couple people might understand(thank Allah for that gift on Earth of intelligent people) i am worried about debate cuz i dislike confrontation. hahaha. if you really want to know, i don't always smile like people think. i have'nt smiled in a while(quite a few minutes) . it's because of my reputation of being so... "happy". i am mistaken as happy when i am really hyper. there is a difference you know. well, i would like to elaborate but i am swamped with work. thnks for choosing "LIfe seen from eyes non other than my own"(the title itself indicated that this blog is my way of telling people my reality ) for your reading privaledges. thank you. good night. *~_~* posted by SiR at 3/15/2006 07:09:00 PM gah, i seem to be really passionate aout this kind of stuff, apparantly, though the past few mins seem to be a blur. note to self: don't let brain get ahead of mind there's probably a lot more but i can't think of it right now...

Ri_Ri Wrote:

gyrowyrm Wrote: you should put this in the psychology forum but the question is, is reality a phsycological illusion?

Nova314 Wrote:

Thank God, I'm not the only person struggling with these questions. Well, first, someone said that nothing is real unless you can see it. If that is true, the world disappears (Along with all of you) when I close my eyes. What about gravity? Magnetism? Do those cease to exist because they are invisible? What about counsciousness? Love? My point is that Reality is not based on what you can sense. ("What is Real? How do you define "Real"? If Real is what you can hear, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then Real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain." -Morpheus) Just because you can't see or sense something doesn't mean it's not real. Reality is a tricky thing. For example... (The following information could lead to a depressing epiphany, so be careful) How do you know that any of this is real? For all you know, you're really a lunatic in a padded room right now, imagining all of this. No one that you know actually exists. None of this actually exists. You are making all of this up. Everything that you know is a creation of your own mind. Even me, telling you this. It's something you're creating. Spooky, eh? The first time I realised that... well... it fucked me up a bit. That and the Truman Show (Which I think somebody mentioned). That movie fucked me up bad. My point is... I cannot prove ANYTHING, not even your existence. For all I know, you're a figment of my imagination. All I can ever truly know is... Somewhere, somehow, in some form... I exist. That's all. You can't prove anything else. There's always another possibility. "This wall is blue." Maybe. But maybe you were born with a slight shift in your eyes' spectrum, so what you see as "blue", the rest of the world recognises as "green". "Fire is hot." Maybe, but maybe it's not. Maybe it has no temperature. Maybe it's just your mind telling you it's hot, so you imagine that it is. But, if I'm explaining this to you, the counter is true. You can only ever know that you exist. "I think, therefore I am." That is the truest statement you can ever say. So I don't really have an answer to what Reality is. Reality is uncertain... Reality is tricky... Reality holds an infinite amount of possibilities to its true nature... Who knows? Perhaps Reality really is perception, and what I perceive is entirely different from what you perceive. Hopefully I've made your head spin a couple times while reading this... but if you're in this thread, it probably won't phase you. Have a nice day.

Kate the Curse Wrote:

First of all, thank you for the Neo jacket. And second of all, everybody's reality is different, like it's been said, it's all Quantum Physics. My reality says that I am 18 years old and am going to college in the fall. Your reality says something different to you. You're barely a dot on my map, I've read something you wrote on the internet, that's our relationship. Reality could be something completely different for every person. What if somebody sees colors more intensely than someone else, or what if plants talked to some guy, nobody will ever know, because that's their reality and there's really no way for them to share that. And how would they know that's outside of "normal" anyway? That's their reality. How do we know that life isn't a dream dreamed up by some strange, mentally disturbed creator and we're just physical manifestations of dream beings that are simply shifted around at his or her own twisted will? We don't. How can I be sure I didn't dream up history, my best friends, my family, all the drama in my life and I'm NOT just a lunatic in a coma having a very strange and sometimes frightening dream? I can't be sure.

Karlmarxplease Wrote:

having studied philosophy extensively, from solipsism to idealism, from representative realism to phenomenalism, i prefer to argue from the linguistic and pragmatist view. I believe that, as evolving and adapting beings, the nature of our reality is unimportant. What i see right now and what i can use and experience, to any useful extent, "will do". This may seem very undefinitive, but that does not matter. If i can accept that this right now is reality, then that's good enough. If i am being decieved by an all powerful demon, there's nothing at all i can do about it; so i need to get on with it and continue with the reality i can experience. If that reality is to change, i will either need to adapt to it, or i will be voided from the universe. That is just the case, no matter what theory you follow. So the pragmatist part of me argues that, whether or not there is a real and metaphysical reality, i am experiencing something and that's good enough. if the something changes, then the something changes, and i have to put up with it. But i can still USE what i have now to the extent that it will let me; i can seem to exist, and i can expect absolutely NO BETTER. (PM me, however, if you'd like to hear my thesis on creating your own, real, God-slave)

egg_freak Wrote:

MMmm. It's the Matrix really.

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~AngelsVermilion~ Wrote:

If you're into thinking like that, you should check this site out. http://www.exitmundi.nl/exitmundi.htm there's actually one about that, and how we could be just fake.

^^ i love exitmundi. it's such an awsome site.